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	<title>Comments on: When Good Design Falls Into The Wrong Hands</title>
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	<link>http://superfluousbanter.org/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/</link>
	<description>Suffering from chronic idiocy since 1977</description>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://superfluousbanter.org/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-1537</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2004 02:48:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfluousbanter.org/beta/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/#comment-1537</guid>
		<description>I have been thinking about how we can turn this round. Maybe the answer lies in our terms &amp; conditions or contracts. I think maintaining your portfolio by links has had it. We need to go screen shots and add *concepts* to our own sites. This has been a really interesting thread. Thanks. Keep on hacking.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been thinking about how we can turn this round. Maybe the answer lies in our terms &amp; conditions or contracts. I think maintaining your portfolio by links has had it. We need to go screen shots and add *concepts* to our own sites. This has been a really interesting thread. Thanks. Keep on hacking.</p>
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		<title>By: brew</title>
		<link>http://superfluousbanter.org/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-1536</link>
		<dc:creator>brew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfluousbanter.org/beta/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/#comment-1536</guid>
		<description>Although the changes are clearly butchery, I think they made them so the site would fully render in legacy browsers (check it in NS4.x). 



I can only assume you educated the client as to the standards you were going to use and the subsequent impact on sub-standards browsers. They understood and agreed to that. Then they changed their mind and decided that they needed a hybrid design that would render fully in older browsers. Lacking the budget to ask you make the necessary changes, they took it upon themselves (or their 13 year old nephew) to make the changes. The nephew couldn&#039;t find the layout images that were written as CSS background images, so he took a screen shot and compressed it - hence the terrible artifacting on the main page image. He couldn&#039;t make head nor tail of the CSS styled list navigation as that wasn&#039;t in his &quot;HTML in 24 Hours&quot; book - so he went with images.



All of these atrocities commited because the MD still uses Netscape 4.7.



Clients are stupid, it&#039;s our job to help them with that, but it&#039;s not always possible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although the changes are clearly butchery, I think they made them so the site would fully render in legacy browsers (check it in NS4.x). </p>
<p>I can only assume you educated the client as to the standards you were going to use and the subsequent impact on sub-standards browsers. They understood and agreed to that. Then they changed their mind and decided that they needed a hybrid design that would render fully in older browsers. Lacking the budget to ask you make the necessary changes, they took it upon themselves (or their 13 year old nephew) to make the changes. The nephew couldn’t find the layout images that were written as CSS background images, so he took a screen shot and compressed it — hence the terrible artifacting on the main page image. He couldn’t make head nor tail of the CSS styled list navigation as that wasn’t in his “HTML in 24 Hours” book — so he went with images.</p>
<p>All of these atrocities commited because the MD still uses Netscape 4.7.</p>
<p>Clients are stupid, it’s our job to help them with that, but it’s not always possible.</p>
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		<title>By: Alanna</title>
		<link>http://superfluousbanter.org/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-1535</link>
		<dc:creator>Alanna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2004 01:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfluousbanter.org/beta/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/#comment-1535</guid>
		<description>Webgraph is no longer credited on the Credits page, too. Does that break the contract, since they are now pilfering your design work?



And why did they feel the need to touch the site if the content is managed by MovableType? They wouldn&#039;t need to touch the code at all to make changes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Webgraph is no longer credited on the Credits page, too. Does that break the contract, since they are now pilfering your design work?</p>
<p>And why did they feel the need to touch the site if the content is managed by MovableType? They wouldn’t need to touch the code at all to make changes.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://superfluousbanter.org/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-1534</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Feb 2004 07:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfluousbanter.org/beta/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/#comment-1534</guid>
		<description>This happened to me once and when I saw what they did to my site I almost cried. 



Part of it is the fact that your client usually doesn&#039;t know any better. They pay you X amount of dollars to develop a site and then someone says &quot;hey, you paid that guy that much money for this site, well my kid knows a little HTML from a class he took at the YMCA why don&#039;t you let him do it for you cheaper&quot;. Particularly right now with everyone cutting back, most people don&#039;t know good design from bad design, or the underlying complexity of developing a web site, concepts like usability, HCI, CSS, web standards, don&#039;t mean anything to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This happened to me once and when I saw what they did to my site I almost cried. </p>
<p>Part of it is the fact that your client usually doesn’t know any better. They pay you X amount of dollars to develop a site and then someone says “hey, you paid that guy that much money for this site, well my kid knows a little HTML from a class he took at the YMCA why don’t you let him do it for you cheaper”. Particularly right now with everyone cutting back, most people don’t know good design from bad design, or the underlying complexity of developing a web site, concepts like usability, HCI, CSS, web standards, don’t mean anything to them.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Bowlign</title>
		<link>http://superfluousbanter.org/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-1533</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Bowlign</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2004 04:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfluousbanter.org/beta/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/#comment-1533</guid>
		<description>Well, when I read the post and comments, I was thinking to myself... &quot;Thank God that hasn&#039;t happened to me&quot; But wait, it just did.



I spent countless hours and the smallest web design fee I have ever worked for working on a project. Now, every few days since it shipped, I have gotten a little email back telling me to tweak it in some way. First it was simple, add a little somthing here, take this out. But now, they want me to take off a part of the header, and turn it into a gigantic background immage. She wants me to take a Monet art peice, and have it (very darkened mind you) the background of the white text. I kept telling her that you can&#039;t read text, and that the way I had it before gave balance to the page. 



Where does one draw the line for how much they modify their work?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, when I read the post and comments, I was thinking to myself… “Thank God that hasn’t happened to me” But wait, it just did.</p>
<p>I spent countless hours and the smallest web design fee I have ever worked for working on a project. Now, every few days since it shipped, I have gotten a little email back telling me to tweak it in some way. First it was simple, add a little somthing here, take this out. But now, they want me to take off a part of the header, and turn it into a gigantic background immage. She wants me to take a Monet art peice, and have it (very darkened mind you) the background of the white text. I kept telling her that you can’t read text, and that the way I had it before gave balance to the page. </p>
<p>Where does one draw the line for how much they modify their work?</p>
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		<title>By: spyder</title>
		<link>http://superfluousbanter.org/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-1532</link>
		<dc:creator>spyder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:46:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfluousbanter.org/beta/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/#comment-1532</guid>
		<description>heh, that sucks.

what is also disturbing is that the jpeg compression they used made the images look horrible, check &quot;Scroll to Menu&quot; .



good that we have personal pages i guess :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>heh, that sucks.</p>
<p>what is also disturbing is that the jpeg compression they used made the images look horrible, check “Scroll to Menu” .</p>
<p>good that we have personal pages i guess :)</p>
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		<title>By: Tony</title>
		<link>http://superfluousbanter.org/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-1531</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Feb 2004 00:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfluousbanter.org/beta/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/#comment-1531</guid>
		<description>The sad part is, they wouldn&#039;t have had to make ANY changes to the content. If they wanted a larger font in black instead of a lighter shade, one change to the style sheet would have &quot;fixed&quot; the whole site...less than appealing design accomplished easily while still maintaining valid and accessible code. I can&#039;t even imagine how many hours they put in &quot;converting&quot; the site to use tables, littered with font tags, rollover images, etc. Simply amazing.



Oh, and Adam (comment 18), that&#039;s funny. For only $250 bucks they&#039;ll even design a site for you! (I guess they&#039;re now web designers?)



Sigh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sad part is, they wouldn’t have had to make ANY changes to the content. If they wanted a larger font in black instead of a lighter shade, one change to the style sheet would have “fixed” the whole site…less than appealing design accomplished easily while still maintaining valid and accessible code. I can’t even imagine how many hours they put in “converting” the site to use tables, littered with font tags, rollover images, etc. Simply amazing.</p>
<p>Oh, and Adam (comment 18), that’s funny. For only $250 bucks they’ll even design a site for you! (I guess they’re now web designers?)</p>
<p>Sigh.</p>
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		<title>By: Jethro</title>
		<link>http://superfluousbanter.org/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-1530</link>
		<dc:creator>Jethro</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2004 19:53:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfluousbanter.org/beta/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/#comment-1530</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m actually working under some of those same conditions as we speak. My company was commissioned to design a site and build templates for a company that would take those templates and fit their content to it. After submitting my first round concepts, they decided that they would feel more comfortable with handing over my concepts to their internal art department instead of asking me to make changes or do something different. I know what you&#039;re thinking, &quot;he just gave crappy concepts.&quot; Well sorry no. They worked just fine.



What I got in return from the PRINT ONLY internal art department was straight out of the early 90s. My well styled header with beautiful photography was replaced with some badly rendered &quot;swirl&quot; vector art, my tab buttons that they had requested were replaced by EXACT copies of apple.com&#039;s tabs and even rendered so small that you could never see them on a normal screen and the document was of course 200 dpi. AND they had already gotten it approved by management (SOMEHOW) over my originals. (Remember this is still using my basic concept layout) 



When we got it back, we basically said sorry but we can&#039;t use this, and offered an alternative concept to which they said, &quot;We&#039;re not going to present this because we already have the other one approved.&quot; So now instead of firing the client like we should have I am forced to implement this horrid design. I wish it was live so I could show it, but alas it is not yet finished. I won&#039;t even get into how badly they have already bastardized my templates and CSS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’m actually working under some of those same conditions as we speak. My company was commissioned to design a site and build templates for a company that would take those templates and fit their content to it. After submitting my first round concepts, they decided that they would feel more comfortable with handing over my concepts to their internal art department instead of asking me to make changes or do something different. I know what you’re thinking, “he just gave crappy concepts.” Well sorry no. They worked just fine.</p>
<p>What I got in return from the PRINT ONLY internal art department was straight out of the early 90s. My well styled header with beautiful photography was replaced with some badly rendered “swirl” vector art, my tab buttons that they had requested were replaced by EXACT copies of apple.com’s tabs and even rendered so small that you could never see them on a normal screen and the document was of course 200 dpi. AND they had already gotten it approved by management (SOMEHOW) over my originals. (Remember this is still using my basic concept layout) </p>
<p>When we got it back, we basically said sorry but we can’t use this, and offered an alternative concept to which they said, “We’re not going to present this because we already have the other one approved.” So now instead of firing the client like we should have I am forced to implement this horrid design. I wish it was live so I could show it, but alas it is not yet finished. I won’t even get into how badly they have already bastardized my templates and CSS.</p>
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		<title>By: Pix</title>
		<link>http://superfluousbanter.org/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-1529</link>
		<dc:creator>Pix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfluousbanter.org/beta/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/#comment-1529</guid>
		<description>The same thing happened to me when designing a local site for an international environmental organisation. They made us believe they had someone with the knowledge to update the site, but they didn&#039;t. After we finished the job, the site was mangled beyond recognition and then redesigned using frontpage. A true work of horror.



How do other designers deal with this? Do they use a local copy for their portfolio? Do they explain what happened? Most starting designers can&#039;t afford to omit a major project form their portfolio.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The same thing happened to me when designing a local site for an international environmental organisation. They made us believe they had someone with the knowledge to update the site, but they didn’t. After we finished the job, the site was mangled beyond recognition and then redesigned using frontpage. A true work of horror.</p>
<p>How do other designers deal with this? Do they use a local copy for their portfolio? Do they explain what happened? Most starting designers can’t afford to omit a major project form their portfolio.</p>
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		<title>By: David House</title>
		<link>http://superfluousbanter.org/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/comment-page-1/#comment-1528</link>
		<dc:creator>David House</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Feb 2004 17:57:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://superfluousbanter.org/beta/archives/2004/02/when-good-design-falls-into-the-wrong-hands/#comment-1528</guid>
		<description>The Anti-Christ is out there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Anti-Christ is out there.</p>
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